Seán: Good man Kevin, its great to see you again. I'm in the shrine here alright in the basement area of 'Na Piobairí Uilleann', as Kevin mentioned those great pipers that went before us, unfortunately I never made the grade so my photograph will never be up here though I'm doing my damn best to promote the pipes over the last 30 years or so, however I started off to learn the pipes when I was about 8 or 10. I had a chanter, I think it was made out of a branch of a tree or something, however I tried my best on that for probably a year or so and it was never in tune. I could never keep it in tune so I packed it up at that stage and I think I came at the pipes about 3 or 4 times up to the age of about 25. I didn't make the grade, I loved the instrument and joined the 'Piobairi Uilleann' in 1970 and I became very active with the club from 1978 on. I'm chairman here now for the last 14 years or so, promoting the Uilleann piping, particularly the teaching both here and abroad.

Kevin: O.K. Seán, you probably would remember a time in Dublin certainly when Uilleann piping wasn't as popular as it is today?

Seán: I certainly do, in fact in various establishments around the city, we didn't travel much in my young days, we didn't have the money to go down to places like Clare and Kerry and Donegal and places like that so most of my early involvement with the music would have been in local, like in houses particularly in the houses. But, outside of our own house in the Coombe in Dublin where my grandfather lived, sessions in other houses, like the pipes were sort of frowned on in certain places, I suppose because they were a loud instrument, the concert pitch pipes in particular, they were a loud instrument and I think that other musicians used to feel, well for the want of a better word, sort of drowned out by the sound of the pipes. But all that has changed, in fact pipers are welcome now, the red carpet nearly goes out on the Streets outside the pubs now with the pipers coming up so in that respect things have changed and some of the finest duets you can hear now around are now pipes and fiddle, pipes and flute.

There's one very recent one I heard, young Conor McKeown and Liam O' Connor, Conor McKeown the Piper, Liam O' Connor the fiddle and I have never heard now and I'm listening to Irish music a long time, I never heard a duet as close and as tight as this one and I hope you get to hear it on the net or somewhere like that in the very near future.

But, I did try the pipes as I said but I wound up with the tin whistle and that's what I've been playing all me life after that. But my grandfather, he didn't teach me but he taught Tommy Wreck and Tommy Wreck was the man I went to when I was about sixteen or sixteen and a half and then I spent a lot of my time with Brendan Breathnach, now he as I say I remember my grandfather very well but I can not remember the sound of his pipes but Breandán Breathnach and Tommy Wreck both received lessons from him and they explained to me and demonstrated to me the type of player he was.

He was a rather tight chanter player and a very very fine jig player and as I say I try even when I'm playing the tin whistle I think its his influence and the influence of the pipes that it seems to be in my tin whistle playing with this sort of tight tonguing and triplets and the rolls I make on the instrument. I'm kind of a half baked tin whistle player and a half baked piper I suppose, I'm not good at either of them I suppose but however I did me best.

I would suggest to anyone learning the instrument, it's a very very difficult instrument to pick to learn, you have to be very very dedicated and I would suggest to any parents listening to this interview now, I would suggest that if their children are showing any signs of interest at all in traditional Irish music and they want, they say they want to learn the tin whistle or the flute but if they aspire to piping I would suggest that they go into the piping straight away, not to waste their early years, not really waste it because they are learning music and all of that but in the development, the muscular development, the fingers and that, it would be very very important that they start on the pipes straight away rather then spending 2, 3, 4, 5 years with a little tin whistle hoping to get on to the pipes and to be able to play them after that, it doesn't work very well. Most of our good players now in the country started off very young around about seven eight years of age and just straight on to the pipes.

And on to a concert pitch chanter, not a small e flat chanter like some people try at one time for the youngsters, it doesn't need that, they might find it difficult to start to stretch the fingers but that's only practice and after about a month they would have that conquered and then there's the co-ordination of the bellows and the bag. Its like that trick rubbing your head and tapping your tummy at the same time, well that comes after a month or two as well so after one year the student should be well on the road to learning this wonderful instrument.

Kevin: Seán you just mentioned your granddad there and he was from County Wexford is that right? (Seán - he was yeah) Seán when I think of Wexford and I think of your grandfather and I think of the Rowsomes and I think of the Cashes, how come or would you know why was there such a tradition of Uilleann piping down in the sunny South East so to speak?

Seán: That question has been asked an awful lot of times and I really can't answer it but Seán Keane the fiddle player from the "Chieftains" he asked me one time what the land was like down there and I said it was very rich very rich land and said he, would they have been rich farmers and I said well a lot of them would have been fairly well off alright and he maintains it was because they would have had the money to buy the instrument because even in those days they were very very dear, they're paying about five and half or six grand for them now and in relative terms they must have been very expensive when they were in the early part of the century as well.

But yeah, it is a case like, but I suppose it's like every thing else just the Wrecks, the Cashes, The Wrecks The Rowsomes, the Potts. My grandfather wasn't a piper down there, he came to Dublin and picked up the pipes in Dublin. He was a flute player down there, he came around 1890 something it was, I've just forgotten the date at the moment, but he came up. But he loved the pipes and learnt them and became very good on them, a very good player by all accounts and as I said I can't remember him but he, during the war, I was with him a lot during the war, we were given, my father and my uncles were given a plot an eight of an acre of land to grow their own vegetables in and they were all born in Dublin I can tell you, it was far from farming they were reared, so my poor grandfather had to dig all the plots except for Tommy.

Tommy seemed to have the knack alright for that kind of thing but he used to come up to our house in Drimnagh for a cup of tea or a few sandwiches after the work and he always carried the whistle with him so I got a good few tips from him in the sitting room at home in Drimnagh He used to carry this B flat whistle with the lead mouth piece in it and he was a wonderful teacher and he paid an awful lot of attention to the structures of the tunes and if you went astray at all you'd get a belt on the finger with a pencil he would have in his hand and to go back again and go over the phrase again and get it out the right way and he would say always remember that you don't, that no matter what variation of the tune you would have, that you do not spoil the basic structure, that has to be maintained right through. He was very, very strict on that and so was Tommy Potts. I got some tunes from Tommy, he was the very same so I carried that with me through my life as well and in my own teaching when I was teaching the tin whistle, I did it for a good few years, I always kept that tradition up of making sure that the structures of the tunes were maintained.

Kevin: And Seán then, that was your grandfathers generation, but your own dads generation, did your father play?

Seán: He did, my father played the melodeon, he played the common set tunes and tunes like Miss mcCloud and the jigs "The Frost is all Over" and things and he played, mainly he would be playing for the dances in the house, he didn't have full sets, he wouldn't do the eight set, he would do half sets, they used to put four people because the rooms were fairly small, you couldn't.

But he was very helpful, in fact I think I may have been influenced by him on the tin whistle because I can remember people ask me what age I started, I can't exactly remember what age but all I can say is I had ceased, I had just ceased to believe in Santa Claus and he put, I woke up and the stocking was hanging on the bed and there was a tin whistle in the stocking, the Christmas stocking, a plastic one with a black mouthpiece on it and as I say I certainly, Santa Claus was gone, so I suppose I was around ten or nine and then my father Jack he came down and he showed me how to play, how to finger it and I don't know how I became left, I hold it left handed and yet my father held it the right way with the left hand on top so it was probably when I was looking at him, like he was sitting opposite. I probably, I don't know, I got mixed up, but however it didn't do me any harm I suppose.

But he gave me tunes like the first one he taught, well he learnt the little marches first and he taught me the first reel I think was "the Fermoy Lassies" and he used to call it "the Delvin lassies" for some reason and he said that was what my grandfather called it. However that was the first tune, the first reel I learned, then I went through the others like "the Rambling Pitchfork" and all those sort of things and my mother then, my mothers people were all involved in the troubled times like from 16 up to 21 and she had a lot of these ballads and she had old tunes as well like the "Coolin" and things like that and I learned a lot of the songs from her so I had both, I was influenced by my father I suppose the dance tunes and his father that Tommy had and then the slow tunes from my mother so I was fairly well endowed.

Kevin: But then Seán of your Dads generation there was your father who played there was his brother Tommy his brother Eddie and was there who else in the family?

Seán: Well there was my father Jack he played the Melodeon and Tommy was the fiddle who became a renowned fiddle player, well known all over the world now, and Eddie, Eddie was a great musician he played the pipes and fiddle in fact when he and a saxophone and to make ends meet he worked in Guinness's, times were hard and to make ends meet he took up the saxophone and became a very fine jazz saxophonist and played in dance bands and played solo in the early like 1930's 1940's. And the day he brought the saxophone into the house in the Coombe, my grandfather said what's that Ned and Eddie said to him well Da that's a saxophone and says he, get that German bull out of here quick he said. So that will just tell you the meas me grandfather had on the sax. However Eddie continued playing the pipes for some time but then ceased altogether and stuck on the sax and then to entertain people then in the house he played the fiddle.

Kevin: And Seán then you would of course you would have continued playing music through the 50's in the early 60's just before "Ceoltoirí Chulainn" started what was the buzz like around at the time when ye kind of put that together on the stage?

Seán: Like there was no sort of stage work in the 50's late 40's 50's most of our fun in the music would be down in the pipers club in Thomas Street and then from the mid 50's like 54 on we had our Wednesday night over in Church Street the "John Egan" Club in Church Street so we had plenty of music but, when, I remember well when the "Clancy Brothers" came back from America and performed here in Ireland they went down a storm and their concerts were packed and people became aware of the existence of the old ballads and things like that but there was a great revival in the interest so Paddy Maloney and myself and Barney McKenna, this now would be the very early 1960 itself, we decided that we might form a group and there was no such thing as a groups in those days, you had the Ceilidh Bands alright playing for the Ceilidh's but we didn't have trios and duets around that much so we were just about to start and then Seán O' Riada came on the scene and around late 60 early 61 and formed "Ceoltoirí Chualainn" the first I suppose Concert Group ever and that was new, fresh and very very exciting. So he picked myself, Maloney, Michael Tubridy, John Kelly, Sonny Brogan, Eamon De Buitleir and Peadar Mercier and Seán Keane later on joined the group. So that was a wonderful 10 years and it opened up an awful lot of doors, both for myself and the rest of the Chieftains too I might add and he was responsible for that new development that new thing in Irish music of concert playing and he also awakened the nation to the existence of traditional music and all credit goes to him for that. Not that he was a brilliant traditional musician himself.... initially he didn't play traditional music, although he had graduated in music at a very very young age and he got a great liking for the traditional music and he carried that with him to the grave.

Kevin: And Seán of course out of "Ceoltoirí Chualainn" grew the Chieftains Seán what was that like?

Seán: The Chieftains?

Kevin: Well just in the over all terms I suppose maybe early 60's but like late 70's when you went professional and when the kind of the whole momentum of the Chieftains actually began to happen and you wound up in Carnegie Hall coming as opposed to coming playing from your grandfathers house in the Coombe?"

Seán: They were wonderful times, it all started off with the... like as I said, the main activities in the 50s was we went into the Church Street on a Wednesday, the few jars around the corner in the pub and we went up and we played a few tunes and then we came back and we waited for Saturday night and we went over to Lynches and we had a pint or two in Lynch's and then over to the club and we played a few tunes in the club and it was great and there was many visitors from all over the Country used to come to Thomas Street and entertain us there and it was great because we got the chance of playing with the different musicians from all over the Country and that was, that was actually as you know the fore runner of the Comhaltas Ceoltoirí Eireann out of which, out of that club thing was started around 1950 '51 and everybody now Comhaltas is well known.

During that period, that first decade, the first decade of the sixties the pub then began to realise that there was a few bob in this and they took in the musicians and of course that was great for us. I was able to buy a car every two or three years out of the few bob I was earning, I remember Uncle Tommy saying to me when we made the first album, when we made the first Chieftains album, we made that he said to me you know, Seán says he, you're no longer an artist you're now an art dealer. But sure if that was the case I was art dealing for years before that because I was playing out in the Abbey Tavern in Howth and The Chariot in Ranelagh and any place you could make a few bob we did it and it was great because the music, we played our music, we didn't change the music in any way but its just that the audiences were there and they were attending these places and we were getting a few bob every week for it.

And then the big time came in 1963, actually during the period of Ceoltoirí Cualainn when Seán left Dublin, he lived in Dublin and he went down to Cúil-Aodha, first of all he went down to Kerry, he went down to Gráigh in Kerry He lived there for a while and then he went over to Cúil-Aodha. He lived in Cúil-Aodha and there was a great demand for the stuff he had started and he wasn't in a position to take on most, a lot of the jobs; but he did take on the radio job, the work which went on for a good few years, the Fleadh Ceoil an Radio and the other one "Reacaireacht an Riadaigh" they continued on.

But Maloney and these lads they saw the potential in the market there and we made an album in 1963 as I said and then after that, that went fairly well, we were semi professional then. I was a civil servant and we, you used to have to apply for special leave of absence to get away you know to tour Europe and Scandinavia and places like that and it went on like that for a good few years up 'til about 1970 '72 and the demand was such then that we agreed that we would have to go full time professional and we did and I got special leave from the service for a good few years and I think I went out in '74 and I had five years out full time. But they were absolutely fantastic and we got to play in places like the Carnegie Hall in London and or sorry The Royal Albert Hall in London and Carnegie Hall in New York and the Symphony in Boston and big places like that to audiences of six thousand and four thousand and three thousand which was absolutely fantastic. I suppose for a fella, for guys who reared up on a few reels, jigs, horn pipes and airs to have achieved that sort of thing, I suppose that in itself was a wonderful thing.

I wasn't very well geared for it mentally because I didn't like the travel, got to me after a while and, I had to leave and come back in and go to my normal job. I kept up the music alright but they were wonderful years. I think the O'Riada era that 10 years perhaps was about the best because as I said it was new and fresh and when we went out then, the great aspect of the travel was, as I said before, was playing in these big hall throughout the world and playing to vast audiences but I still, when I go back now, I still think and laugh and enjoy the 10 years I had with Seán O'Riada and, on a commercial end of it there is no doubt about it the Chieftains was very fruitful all together, you know it was terrific.

Kevin: OK Seán, a few lads have written in a few questions to you, they just want to ask you, there is a big fan of yours called Eric Kent who is from Rhode Island and no. 1 he says that you were the main inspiration for him playing the whistle and he is after taking up the pipes and any shapes he makes at playing the pipes he wants to dedicate to you, he wants to know about your granddad's playing, do you think you can hear echoes of your grandfather in Tommy Wreck?

Seán: Oh, absolutely, yes, Tommy would have been one of his star pupils and carried on the tradition and there is no doubt about that, Tommy was a great example of the type of player my grandfather was.

Kevin:

Grand and Seán a fella called Joe Spetchy who is from Newcastle West in Ireland says he has a son who wants to become a professional piper and tour the world I suppose just like you did with the Chieftains, should he discourage him?

Seán: He wants to become a professional piper, my God he has his work cut out for him, what age is he now is he, he doesn't say. Well, if he is a young man he can dedicate his life to the pipes, he won't become a professional piper overnight as I say its going to take, depending on the age again, the older you are the longer it takes to develop the thing but, music is a great gift and it shouldn't be flaunted, you should not sit down and say, I'm going to become a professional musician, whatever you're playing whether its traditional music or classical or other, you've got to love it first and know exactly what the music is all about and how to express yourself in music, not to become just a mechanical player that you can go off and I'm after learning the Banjo, the Pipes or whatever it is and go off and start playing going around pubs and things that are around the world taking on the mantle of a musician perhaps you wouldn't be a musician. To be a musician takes an awful lot of practice, practice, practice.

Kevin: Seán that just tees up this next question perfect for you, its again from your good friend Eric Kent in Rhode Island. Its a bit of a long winded question but basically what he wants to know is do you think its essential to be familiar with the words of Seán nos songs certainly the sean nós tradition if you wanted to play a slow air properly?

Seán: Absolutely, now some of the sean nós songs as you know Eric is that his name and by the way thank you very much for your comments Eric, I can't remember you but I suppose if I saw you I'd remember you but however the sean nós, yes it is essential that now there could be 45 or 50 verses, its not necessary to have the 45 or 50 verses of the tune but in order to play the tune properly and to understand it, to understand what way the sean nós singers are actually interpreting the tune you have to know the words, at least well know the story line well and then of course you have to know how to adapt the sean nós aspect of the song to the instrument.

That's the most difficult part and there is I would say this and I've said this before, I've given lectures on this same thing in America and places like that but people taking up airs to play, I'm delighted by the way that there are so many instrumentalists now playing airs, that wasn't the case in my young days in fact I'd say I was unique in the late 40's and early 50's in that respect that I did play them and the way to handle an air is first of all as I say is to get the words and try to hear sean nós singers singing the song and then moving the song. People take on they decide to play an air and they call them slow airs and they play them so "slow airish" that they are boring and there is no meaning or anything in them, there just slow, an air must move, there are phrases in it, they move, there's rhythmic phrases in it and listening when you're listening to the sean nós singing you learn how to interpret the song for your instrument yes to answer the question get to know the words at least some of words, get to know the main story behind it and listen if you can listen to some sean nós singing the airs.

Kevin: Seán, Eric also wants to know in relation to your own playing, your tonguing that you use for your phrasing and your rhythm he wants to know can you attribute that to any one person as an influence?

Seán: No, a certain amount of tonguing is absolutely necessary in whistle playing and in flute playing and in any of the whistle players, I suppose that one of the best in Ireland is Mary Bergin and she has a wonderful way of tonguing out the phrases and some phrases are just played straight legato, it depends entirely on the tune whether the phrase is tongued or not. Some people do too much tonguing in my opinion and maybe that the way they like to do it. I was influenced by uilleann pipes that's why I suppose I have that tightness that trying to interpret the tight playing of the pipes and there is a certain amount of tonguing I suppose used in that respect. I remember when I was doing it one time with Tommy, I was getting a tune from Tommy on the pipes and I asked him, you know the way you'd ask him have you got this tune and without strapping up the pipes, I had the tin whistle in me pocket, I took it out and I played the first 2 or 3 bars on the whistle for Tommy and he said to me, Jesus Seán says he you're playing that like a scallion now I don't know what that means but he said it and I don't know what it meant but I laughed over it and I've mentioned that a few times before but the tonguing is an essential part of the mechanics of the instrument and if you use it tastefully and organise your phrases properly as I say some phrase loads of legato no tonguing at all and then when the tune needs a lift or a break just tongue it off yeah.

Kevin: Seán a fella from Belfast Mr. Seán Quinn wants to know were you involved in the sound track "The Playboy of the Western World" and if so is it available today on CD?

Seán: I don't know whether its available on CD, I'm sorry about that now but I was to answer the first bit of your question, yes I was involved in that with the 'Ceoltoirí Chualainn" in the "Playboy of the Western World" and, it maybe available on vinyl somewhere but I don't know, I haven't got it at home, certainly not on Cd as far as I know.

Kevin: And Seán another guy called Bill from Philly in the USA said he has been playing 'the boy in the boat' which your recorded I think with Paddy Maloney yourself on the album "The Tin Whistles" and he wants to know do you know anything about the tune itself in terms of have you a story about it or where did you get it from?

Seán: Well to tell you the truth I don't know where I got it from but it just tickled me fancy years ago and I just got told the name of it " the boy in the boat" but I really I'm sorry I don't know what it means but it probably was composed by some guy out on a boat or something like that, a lot of these old tunes were referred to happenings or events like that you know from time to time like so I really don't know, I got it when I was very young but I don't know where I got it so.

Kevin: And then there is a guy Fran O' Donnell in Cambridge Massachusetts USA wants you just to talk about your uncle Tommy for a while, he says he has the album "The Liffey Banks" and he just wants to know no. 1 how do you account for his incredible innovative style surely this wasn't a common style in his day and he also wants to know do you think his peers of the time actually appreciated his brilliance and did his music have much affect on you and do you have any particular memories of him?

Seán: I have, Tommy was unique in his fiddle playing years ago and to answer the first part of your question there, he wasn't very highly thought of by many people but there were a few discerning musicians in the Country who did laud his playing very much but in a general way, it wasn't he was very innovative as you say and he had tackled the traditional music in a way that wasn't the norm but again if you listen to his music the structures are always perfect with wonderful variations that are accepted all over the place now he is lauded and praise and everything else but the people who really appreciated Tommy were the people down in County Clare Willie Clancy, Peter O' Loughlin, Seán Reid, in particular absolutely idolised him and he used to go down to Clare at least once a year as he used to say himself to re-charge his batteries but he went down there and he knew of course he was well appreciated in our own circle in Dublin as well but, he wasn't a session player, this is the point, it wasn't that they ignored his playing but Tommy was not a session player, he was a soloist an absolute soloist and he would maybe come into a pub, an establishment and say the I can't remember the name of the Pub in the Church Street there at the corner 'Lavins it was Lavins, he would go in there and have a pint or two or a glass of port and he'd go up and he often sat in Church Street and it would be near the end of the night before he'd play a tune even though he would have been asked but he was always the solo player and that was his mark so to answer the first part of the question again no he wasn't regarded as you know the great sit in session player but thankfully eh, his fiddle playing now is very much sought after.

Kevin: And then Seán just to finish up there is a fella from Austin in Texas a fella called Dave Polacheck, he has a few technical questions no. 1 its about the c natural is it possible to finger a c natural on the chanter without a c natural key and the other thing is can you notate a cran on the pipes as such?"

Seán: It's very difficult to explain that on an interview like this. It is possible of course its possible to make a c natural on the pipes, I'm sure you're referring to the high c natural second octave, it is but again it depends entirely on the chanter what fingering you use, it could be cross fingering you can have the D off the D and E off there is no point, there's several ways of doing it, it depends entirely on the chanter and you have to fork finger that particularly that note and the cran, the cran is another personal movement on the pipes and yes it can be notated but there are different ways of doing it so I would suggest, the best illustration I have seen for both these notes the c natural and the cran is in the tutor, the masters touch, the Seamus Ennis tutor which was published by "Na Piobairí Uilleann" two years ago, it was edited by Wilbert Garvin and Robbie Hannon and that book has a couple of clear sort of notation for both the C and the Cran so I'd suggest that you get that book that would be the one and its available and now I'm not on the marketing trick here but its available at the Piobairí Uilleann for about I think its £12 quid for non members and £10 for members.

Kevin: Thanks Seán, and just one more last one before you go, where to from now will you do a solo album, obviously you're going to continue work with "Na Piobairí Uilleann" but in terms of your playing have you got any plans for that in the future or anything?

Seán: I have actually, I've some of it done already for about 2 years or 3 years or the best part of it but I'm being pushed now by young Seán to get it finished and as soon as I get a bit of a break at all I'll put the rest of it together. I think I might have him on it with me now because I'd need a bit of crutch now at my age but I had a great time. I'd just like to come back to Tommy a bit, there was one other question which was there too, that lad from where was he from (Kevin, he was from Massachusetts) Cambridge you asked if he influenced me in any way. He did, he did influence me and I spent a lot of time with him and I got a good few tunes from him as well and I they are the tunes that I cherish, a funny thing the tunes that my grandfather gave me and the tunes that Tommy gave me are the tunes I cherish and play a lot myself so I'm very very grateful to have been born in that situation you know and its a privilege really. There are many many people out there starved of that kind of influence so you should always be thankful to our parents and grandparents for helping us through this sort of thing you know.

Kevin: And fair play to you Seán, you actually passed it on then to young Seán or Seán óg, well he's not probably Seán óg any more but I mean obviously we are looking forward to an album from young Seán and I heard it myself its great stuff, it will be coming out very very soon.

Seán: Yeah, I'm glad he did it too because it, I mean that the world deserves it because he is a good player, a good piper and I'm very happy to say too by you people over there in Massachusetts my daughter Cora is over there now too, my two grandchildren, Sorcha and Liadh O' Rourke, I believe they are budding fiddle players Kevin had them, they were over here for Christmas and Kevin gave them a couple tunes or something like that and I got a call from Maloney the other day that the two kids will be playing with the Chieftains in Carnegie or the Symphony Hall in Boston in March, the 16th of March, I think that's the time.

Kevin: Well, Seán it continues anyway, Seán thanks a million.

Seán: You're very welcome, anytime Kevin and the best of luck with that sort of work you're doing.

Kevin: Thanks Seán.